Yes, I know that you won’t use clock or frequency dividers. I am fine with you using 6 oscillators
The Count Modular frequency Divider may not be an oscillator but it behaves in a similar way to a subharmonic oscillator and because it has a bipolar output, it can outputs a suitable square wave. I am not saying you need to use it but I found it useful in terms of Omri Cohen’s video and I wish we had Count Modular modules in miRack
Fwiw, it also behaves a bit like a subharmonic oscillator so might be useful in terms of plotting the frequency outputs if one wants to emulate subharmonics:
best
Phil
Btw, I am a very happy owner of a DFAM and a Mother 32. I would love to have a Moog Subharmonicon but I can’t really shell out that kind of money at the moment.
Other semi-modular gear I already have @Runcell, is a Neutron, a Crave, and a Keystep. I also have a Microfreak which also has CV outs. The SH-01A, which I have also has CV Out and Gate Out and Ext Clk In.
I am still working on my setup for jamming as I started using Korg Gadget as a sequencer for my gear.
Thanks for posting that chart @sowarimodular, that is very useful. The sub oscillators’ pitch dials are stepped intervals. The Quantize button selects between -8 or 12 tone equal temperament or 8 or 12 tone just intonation
The following paragraph is copied from the user Manual, under introduction ‘a brief history’. It strongly suggests that there are a ‘SERIES’ of oscillators in there… and after all it would be impossible for the subs to be saw wave when the main oscillator is a square as can do on the Subharmonicon. So without even seeing the service manual, I’m 98% sure that there are 6 individual oscillator inside the hardware unit.
“ a series of subharmonic oscillators that generated undertones pitched at fractions of the original pitch (and not the overtones created at multiples of the original pitch, such as in Laurens Hammond’s tone- wheel organ).”
It’s where they state a “series of OSCILLATORS that are set lower, as musical intervals” is the clue.
With the subs set to saw wave and the main oscillators set to square wave, the subs (saw) can be used as the modulation source for the PWM, which is interesting.
I think where you are getting confused is the divisions are not audio divisions (like taking a split) but divisions of the fundamental. The fundamental being the pitch of the main OSC ie f1/2 = 1 octave upto f1/16= 4 octaves.
@sowarimodular, a frequency divider only works as a sub oscillator if you plug an oscillator into it and divide down (sub).
But if you plug a clock pulse into a frequency divider, it is now NOT a sub oscillator, but it is still a frequency divider, so it divides the clock pulse frequency.
A ‘clock pulse’ is basically a modded square wave LFO with an offset.
Run a clock pulse at audio rate and it can behave like a sort of oscillator. Run a clock pulse at audio rate and have it drive a sequencer that triggers an AD, and it creates a waveform that oscillates fast enough to create an audible sound. Loop an AD - function generator - fast enough and it creates and audible sound.
Run a ‘clock pusle’ at audio rate and put the output into a clock divider or ‘frequency divider’ and you get audio rate oscillations at the outputs. These might not be ‘oscillators’ but they produce audible sound that can be used in a system.
I do all of the above all the time with my Eurorack gear because I get sounds and cross modulations that produce waveforms and the audible results are different to just using ‘real’ oscillators. I also use these techniques in miRack and VCV Rack and Reaktor 6.
I won’t patronise you by saying ‘I hope you understand’ but I hope you understand more about where I am coming from? Basically I am coming from a very long background in experimental music and I am interested in exploring sound making tools and systems that make sounds that interest me, and using a frequency divider or a clock divider to make audible sound interests me whether it is a ‘real’ oscillator or not.
Take the Moog DFAM - the engineers that designed it deliberately chose to have a ‘Tempo’ knob that can run the sequencers at audio rate for creative purposes and that is one of the main reasons why I love my DFAM and use it a lot to create amazing drones. In other words, I often use it to make non-percussive sounds when in fact DFAM stands for ‘Drummer From Another Mother’. So yes, I am ‘breaking the rules’ and most likely before I fully understand them
Sorry Phil, I’m not trying to be patronising, just trying to help you guys out with your Subharmonicon… let’s not loose the point.
When you say things like “I thought Count modula was a subharmonic oscillator” and when you’re using 10 oscillators for a 6 oscillator synth, it kind of shows me what your level of understanding is.
Hi @Runcell I never said “I thought Count modula was a subharmonic oscillator”
Omri Cohen used the Count Modula Voltage Controlled Frequency Divider as a subharmonic oscillator in his version of Subharmonicon. I said that it could behave like an oscillator in that it sends out a square wave and and it receives pitch information and can reproduce the subharmonics that are similar to a subharmonic oscillator.
Sorry @sowarimodular, you’re right in that you said ‘acts like’ a subharmonic oscillator. Yes, it will. When an oscillator is plugged into it. And the cool thing about Count modula is the CV input that Omri uses.
I’ve been learning more about the Subharmonicon today, by looking at the user manuals and reviews. Omri’s build is very clever, but the Count modula is a workaround, because in the hardware unit the 2 subharmonic generators can be set to saw wave and (pulse width) modulate the fundamental (square wave) oscillator.
When using Count modula, like Omri does, you take a split from the fundamental oscillator to plug into count modula. So now if he changes the fundamental oscillators wave from saw to square, the sub will change to a square also. When the real Subharmonicon can be square wave for the fundamental and saw waves for the Subharmonics. Hopefully you can see, Count modula is a workaround… The sound on sound review states “Oscillator 1 is the fundamental oscillator and 2 subharmonic generators”. An audio generator is an oscillator and subharmonics is musical intervals below the fundamental frequency. So the 6 oscillator route is maybe more faithful to the hardware, and gives more control over the tuning also.
I see where you are coming from with the subs. The frequency dial adjusts the subs in steps or (musical) divisions of the fundamental. Using this will generate some nice chords, hopefully I can get that working in miRack at least…
Thanks for clarifying that and yes I understood that Omri’s method was a workaround.
When I did my workaround in miRack I wanted to see if I could have saw waves for the subharmonics - and the is the reason why I chose to use the Tidal Modular 2 because it can work as an oscillator in audio range and also because it has a clock input. I fully realise that that workaround did not make a lot of sense because it meant I - we @playinmyblues - just wanted to reproduce Omri’s patch in miRack but then had to problem solve the fact that miRack does not have a frequency divider. FYI, on the Facebook miRack group I had already discussed using 6 evenVCO oscillators and finding a methodology for transposing frequencies to imitate subharmonics as I was getting frustrated with the compromised audio quality of my version that used RGATEs and Tidal Modular 2s.
The way that I’m considering, for the sub oscillators is to use the SUBMARINE SS212 12 chromatic output volt source. This looks like it will output the required voltages for the divisions …ie 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th etc. But will be equal temperament. I’ve looked into the quantize button and for now may have to stick to equal temperament only… trying to include just intonation as well seriously complicates things.
I’ve got the 3 way waveform switch working, so that oscillator 1 (section) can be all saw, all square or (middle position) saw and square. And the same for the oscillator 2 (section). I’ve also got the 2 sub oscillators from osc section 1 to PWM the square wave in osc section 2 and visa versa.
I’m going to have a go with the sub oscillators’ divisions/intervals soon, it’s just a case of switching the (right) voltages into the 1v/Oct inputs when using a Tact-1 slide controller/s… ie osc 1 Sub 1 pitch dial, then osc 1, Sub 2 pitch dial. The Tact controllers should then step thru the subharmonic divisions.
I am happy with equal temperament fwiw, that - as you most likely know - is also an option on the Moog Subharmonicon.
It would be great if you could have options to use the AD with the sequencer, with a trigger button and not at all. I would love to have the option of just having the oscillators running as drones going through a filter.
I’ve got a big button, that works like the play button on the real thing, it start/stops the clock/sequencers… a reset button and a tact controller for tempo… all of which I should have done on the patchstorage version.
I should be able to put a button in that switches off the AD env’s and a manual envelope trigger button as well. On the real unit, there is a button labelled EG, this locks the filter and envelopes to their highest values, is this what you mean ?
Out of curiousity regarding frequency division and how close we can get with subharmonics to actual notes, I made a quick spreadsheet. I started off with A = 440Hz and then upscaled from there. The top frequency in the chart is A8 = 7040Hz.
Take note of one close note, for example is when starting with A8, G5 from frequency division is 782.222. According to the chart provided by this link: https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
G5 = 783.99Hz, which is fairly close.
Re: EG what it says in the manual - This includes being able to disengage the ADs - which is how I understand it - and have the oscillators just run through the filter for drone music techniques. Then there is als the Trigger button that can act as a gate when held or an AD if the finger is removed. But I do understand what you mean by highest value.
Hey @playinmyblues, the subs frequency division is not too hard to do, we can use the SUBMARINE SS212… the biggest problem is connecting several sources to one (frequency dial) and all the switching… for example there are 16 intervals on just one frequency dial, so we need x2, 8 way switches and a 2 way switch to switch between the 2, 8 way switches… now that is for just one frequency dial, so we need to do this another 5 times for each frequency dial, so that’s 12- 8 way switches and 6- 2 way switches (18 in total) to get the all the frequency dials in. If you see.
Hopefully I can find a way around that.
Hey @sowarimodular, I’ve got the manual trigger button working. The EG button is a 3 way switch, I’ve got the env on/off part working ok, I just have to figure out the third state, how to hold the envelopes open. Which is possible but needs an envelope with a cycle or hold cv in, so the current NYSTHI AD envs will have to be swapped out.
The patch is growing and I’ve not put the frequency dials in yet.
The Subharmonicon is more complex than it appears. Things like the rhythm dials are OR logic from value 0-63 and XOR logic from 64-127… the envelopes attack portion does not retrigger until the attack phase is complete and such. But and if the cpu holds out, it’s all recreatable.
